Diego: Stussy, Jaded & Toteme. Luxury Fashion.

Diego - Pod 2
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[00:00:00] Welcome to Ecom Sessions with your hosts, Sam and Jake. This podcast was created for e commerce marketing leaders, offering monthly insights from industry peers about growing and scaling e commerce marketing teams. With Sam's background in organic growth and Jake's background in paid growth, they'll be providing a well rounded perspective on e commerce marketing.

Thanks for listening and onto the episode.

Jake: Okay, Diego, uh, thanks for joining us. And a question that we're asking all our guests to begin with is if you could instantly master one new skill What would it be and why?

Diego: Oh man, uh, it would [00:01:00] probably be around martial arts If it's uh, if it's not related to what we do with work or somewhat related maybe Yeah, I see myself as some sort of martial arts expert, but obviously I'm not

Sam: Interesting

Diego: Do you, do you do it now?

Diego: Or is it just something that you've Well, I do, I do boxing. Um, I love boxing and, and, you know, I, I love the, the, the discipline of it and the culture of it. But I also have a soft spot for martial arts and Krav Maga and, but obviously I'm not good at any of those things. But I see myself doing that if, in another universe.

Sam: Nice. And if someone doesn't sign off on your budget, you can Beat them up

Diego: exactly. Right. And that's, uh, uh, that's a skill to have for sure.

Jake: I was more thinking how it helps with the problem solving, you know, intellectually marketing.

Diego: Exactly. It could be, it could be the

Sam: conclusion of all things.

Jake: All right, cool.

Sam: Uh, [00:02:00] how about you start with, um, introducing yourself and just giving a little bit of your background.

Diego: Yeah. So I'm Diego Fria. I'm currently the commercial director at Jaded London, um, fashion company based out of North London. Before Jaded, I worked as a e commerce director at Stussy, um, you know, HQ in Los Angeles, but we worked out of, uh, a few of us out of London.

Diego: And before Stussy, I worked as a e commerce director at Totem. Um, same positions, somewhat same positions, different companies, um, and I would say similar challenges across all these companies. I'm originally from Buenos Aires, Argentina, so Spanish is my first language, and I've been in London for quite a few years now, so London is home.

Sam: Did you live in the Nordics when you, when you worked in Tokyo? Yeah, I lived in Stockholm.

Diego: Yeah, I actually lived, I grew up in Buenos Aires, I lived in New York. [00:03:00] Then London, then Stockholm, and now back in London. So I speak Swedish also, which is, um, an interesting skill.

Sam: And it is the reality that they are the happiest people in the world?

Sam: Or is that just all marketing hype?

Diego: Yeah, it all depends on how you define happiness, right?

Sam: On the point of Stussy, so I remember when we had, uh, when you just joined Stussy and we had a call and you were pretty much beaming because you were saying that it was your dream job. Um, so like what, what was the realities then of, because I'm sure there's a lot of people out there that have certain companies that they want to move to, pinpoint as their dream job and then you got it.

Sam: So what was your actual reality of landing your dream job?

Diego: Yeah, it was so nice when you reminded me of this the other day, because I have forgotten I made that comment, uh, and, and so that was, that was, uh, very nice to hear if a bit, a bit nostalgic, maybe. Um, I think it [00:04:00] was a dream job for me for a few reasons.

Diego: Obviously, I love the brand and it is still one of my favorite brands. Um. But what I love the most from a professional perspective, um, sort of where I am or was in my career is the fact that, um, it is an international company, right? Um, from the U. S. all the way to Japan and U. S. based, obviously, um, and coming from a What then was a smaller brand like Totem out of the Nordics working for an American company and sort of a big iconic brand felt like a dream.

Diego: Especially as a director, right, which, you know, I was then able to manage a great team and lead all these different projects. So it was a dream job. Um, so it really fulfilled that part of it. Um, I think it was maybe better than I thought it would be personally and professionally as well.

Sam: What were your [00:05:00] learnings jumping from, uh, the small, smaller brand like Totem and then going to like an internationally renowned brand like Stussy?

Diego: You know, funny enough, uh, despite the size differences and the location and the history of, of, of the brands. You know, the challenges tend to be the same across many companies, right? This is something that I'm sure that you see a lot when you talk to different merchants. Uh, and, and sometimes, you know, um, the grass is greener from the perspective.

Diego: You, you, you sometimes feel that other brands have figured everything out. Uh, but then when you actually. You know, talk to them or look behind the scenes. Um, we're all trying to figure it out. Right. And, and maybe that, that is, uh, one big thing that really stood out for me. Um, then being a, being working for such an iconic brand, it comes with a lot of heritage and, and, and, right.[00:06:00]

Diego: There are ways of doing things, um, that apply to certain brands and you learn to kind of work within the brand. What that means for that brand and I and I think that you learn that along the way But then you become really good at it You just don't want it to kind of trap you into some sort of you know into this brown walls in a way But within that there's a lot of freedom and and then there's obviously the culture right working for With American colleagues is it is different than working for or with Swedish colleagues or?

Diego: British colleagues, for that matter. So then you learn about different cultures and different ways of seeing the world and what cultures value differently. So that, that's insane learning for someone coming from Argentina, interacting with all these different cultures. It's always a massive learning.

Jake: Diego, do you think there's something to be said about, um, you said, you said it was, uh, one of your favorite [00:07:00] brands is the, do you think it's underestimated how important it is to join a brand that you are inherently really passionate about and a customer about? Do you think that allows you to be more impactful in a role because you actually love the product?

Diego: I think that's either, either a dream or a nightmare, right? Depending on how it ends up being. Um, I heard about. Overall, I agree. I think that it is much easier to work for a brand that you love, right? Because you are immersing yourself in the culture and products and the different values of the brand and people that hover around the brand.

Diego: If you love the brand, then it's a better context. It can also be a double edged sword in that. You might end up hating the brand if things don't go well. Uh, so in, in, in this particular case, it, it went really well and, and, um, you would always, you know, um, I would always look up to it in, in [00:08:00] many different ways.

Diego: But, um, but overall I would say yes. But, uh, you know, you hear stories about people that joined their dream brands and then it wasn't what they thought it would be.

Jake: Maybe it's like don't meet your heroes.

Diego: But, uh, that's, uh, that's the saying, right? Yeah.

Sam: Uh, okay. So then based on Stussy, um, why did you leave and what did that job search look like?

Diego: Yeah. I mean, I think after three years of really refining your work and, and kind of, right, if you think about Stussy is very launch centered and Just really, I would just say that we created such a good system, such a good way of working from operations to tech, and just the different aspects that we worked on tidying up, right, when I joined.

Diego: It was a very, very different setup. And, and things became so, I would say, so [00:09:00] smooth that, um, I really, you know, I'm a, I like action, right? And speaking of martial arts, I like action, and I like Um, projects and I like, um, movement and changes. Um, so, and, and, and professionally, right, you, I like thinking about how can I grow from where I am today.

Diego: I am very growth and opportunity driven. So, so, so, so, you know, I reached a point where I felt that, um, you know, can I grow more within Stusik? Is there, you know, can I do more things or different things within what I love doing. Um, so if the answer is no, I think if you're not growing, it doesn't matter how comfortable you are or how well you get paid or whatever.

Diego: For me, if I'm not growing, then there's no point, um, to continue working in a [00:10:00] passionate way, which is the way that I like working. And I see comfort as a The enemy of growth. So I would just say I was very comfortable. Um, so then, you know, I started to think, okay, maybe what else could I do? What's going on out there?

Diego: And then, you know, how could my role evolve? In what direction should I move? Um, so then I've been chatting with jaded founders for a while. And, and, you know, they loves to see. And I think there were many, many things that I could bring. So as a commercial director, I'm able to Or hopefully I will be able to, uh, then implement a lot of the learnings and ideas and strategies that I learned along the way from way before Stussy to, to now.

Diego: Um, and I love the, I love working for a British company. I think, you know, I work for a Swedish and American. And now living in London, it just feels perfect for me to work with a British [00:11:00] company that is growing in the U. S. quite a lot, and Asia as well. So, it just felt perfect from the moment.

Sam: You kind of touched on it there.

Sam: Um, in terms of like the process of actually going to find a job now at like the director level, so you kind of touched on it, but do you find this more based on the net network that you've built and the people that you know? Or is it everything exactly the same that you just search LinkedIn and you see a director role and you apply?

Diego: You know, that's a good question. Um, I, and I would, at least for me, um, once you are a director, et cetera. approach you, which is very, very flattering, um, and very humbling. And that's something that I've noticed a lot. Um, you get approached with ideas, projects, smaller brands, bigger brands, really big brands.

Diego: And, and generally speaking, I tend to prefer smaller brands mainly because You know, you're able to have more of an impact and [00:12:00] bring your experience and knowledge and learn new things as well. And it's more entrepreneurial environment than bigger brands. Um, but the job search looks very different, I would say almost to the point where you just don't send CVs anymore, um, which for me is a blessing, right?

Diego: Because I could, I could write a Bible about the. The amount of brands that never hired me, um, really it's an infinite list of brands that never hired me, uh, when I was younger. Um, so to reach a level of professional work, you know, uh, people approach you with ideas and projects and it is very flattering and, and I always enjoy that.

Jake: So, so would you say, um, because you've obviously built up and, and worked with like a roster of, um, premium retails now that pretty much negates the need for, uh, a typical, uh, word document in the form of a cv. Actually, you've just built a good network. You've worked at some amazing brands. [00:13:00] Um, is that, is that the practicality of, of how it's happening?

Jake: I think

Diego: it's something that just happens. I think, you know, when, when you are within the same industry for many years and you develop a great network and of peers and, you know, Whether it's to see or to time when you work for this amazing brands, um, you, you meet other peers that work at other great brands where you can share ideas and war stories, et cetera.

Diego: Um, so you, you do develop, uh, sometimes even unintentionally a great network and people get to hear from you. You know, I've, as you know, I've, I've given talks and been in conferences and I just love giving back and share my experience and, and, um, and, and, and, and the same way that other. Um, peers might hear about you from you than founders and CEOs also, right?

Diego: And people are trying to grow their companies and building, build team cultures. And they always reach out for ideas. And [00:14:00] sometimes you just have really good chemistry with a founder or CEO. You know, it would be great to do something together and work together. So it kind of usually evolves from a conversation and from an idea of what the company is trying to build.

Diego: But, uh, the dynamics are very different, um, from when I was starting out, for sure.

Sam: You mentioned that, yeah, like, you're in a niche, but it does sound like You do do a lot more than that as well. Like even just like you said, like you do the speaking events, like I assumed you attend quite a lot of events as well, and it seems like a quite a natural thing for you to just put yourself out there more, which is that that's the element that's built the network, right?

Sam: Rather than like just.

Yes.

Sam: Sitting at home and not putting yourself out there, it's interesting.

Diego: Yeah, and it's funny because I'm, I'm, you wouldn't believe, you wouldn't believe it, but I am actually quite an introvert, uh, privately. Um, but I love learning and hearing about other companies and how other people work, but also I love [00:15:00] sharing and giving back and, and.

Diego: I always get nervous or, you know, shy when I go to, to give a conference and usually I regret it the second before I go up, uh, and give a talk. But then I really enjoy it because the joy that I get from giving back and hopefully inspiring other people, right? That's the energy that I needed when I was starting out.

Diego: And even to this day, when I, when I, maybe you catch one great talk and that's all you needed for that month, right? And maybe you learn something. So I try to attend, um. Um, I'm not hyper social, um, to be honest, but I do, I do love the upside of attending this event. Uh, you just have to pick really good ones, but, um, but, but you do, you know, throughout the years you do build a bit of a network and a group of peers that you can always lean on for ideas and suggestions and advice as well.

Jake: I genuinely think, uh, and I, I share the same opinion here, the more [00:16:00] you put yourself out there and pay it forward within this industry because it's so small. You just automatically kind of shortcut or it's like a hack to career growth. You just put yourself in more situations whereby people remember you or you can, you know, you build up those contacts.

Jake: I think, yeah, sounds like it's put you in good stead.

Diego: Yeah, and you know, there's such high demand for what we do, right? There's, there is, um, you know, working in e commerce is a weird job, right? Because What do I do? What, what do I know? And I don't know anything, right? Or, or maybe a little bit of many things.

Diego: Um, but you know, I mean, I know about SEO, I'm not an SEO guy and I know about coding. I'm not a coder. I, you know what I mean? And, and you, it's such a strange place to be. And, and, and yet, um, there is high demand for, for these roles. And I think exposing yourself to different disciplines, whether it's. You know, logistics or, you know, finance [00:17:00] and obviously tech and and learning new things.

Diego: I think it's so important when you work in e commerce because it is such a, which is why I love it. I loved it from the beginning. You know, you, it's about design and tech and finance and commerce and customer experience and user experience. And, and, um, but I'm not an expert in any of those. Um, so it's an interesting place to be.

Diego: Uh, but I, I always, I would think of e commerce peers as I think a a, a good e-commerce professional would be a bit of an orchestrator, right? You have each individual expert and you try to orchestrate almost like a coach. Uh, you orchestrate a team to, so hopefully they can flow and create, um, symphonies of, of, of success for, for the company, um, and a great culture as well.

Diego: And, and. But yeah, when you think about it, right, sometimes I go to bed and think, I don't know, you know, what can I do if I go into a desert island and, and suddenly I have to survive [00:18:00] and, um, but, but, but yeah, I would just say that, um, that there is, despite the, How funny the role is there's high demand and and somewhat short supply and and e commerce sometimes it can be seen as a bit of a boring right kind of team in any company right you know people want to be designers or clothing designers or fashion designers or developers and and whatever right but I think that It is a fantastic place to be because you get exposed to all these, all these disciplines and we are, you know, from copywriting to design and imagery and tech and just fantastic.

Diego: And I think if, if people tend to be a little bit more of a generalist, um, then Ecom, I think it's a perfect place to be for, yeah, for jobs and, and, um, and action.

Sam: Well, final question for me on, uh, on this section. You mentioned that about companies approaching you. [00:19:00] Uh, how often do you explore those opportunities?

Sam: Do you, is there a case of, because one of my friends kind of did it recently where wasn't really interested in the job and then he kind of explored it, saw a bigger salary, and then kind of almost used that to then go back internally and just be like, I think you're paying me too little.

Diego: Yeah, that's, that's, uh, you know, to each his own.

Diego: Uh, I mean, I mean, for me, at least personally, I. You know, I, I wouldn't do that. I, I'm, I'm, I feel comfortable in how I would negotiate a salary. And, you know, and I think that what I agree is what we agreed. And that's, that's it. But in my experience, I do get approached often or oftenish, um, usually, usually on LinkedIn, um, and usually I go by brands.

Diego: Right. And then kind of team and projects and, and in terms of exploring them, if I like the brand and if the [00:20:00] timing is right, usually right at say at Stussy for two and a half years, I wouldn't have done it. Um, mainly because I just, I didn't feel like, um, but if the timing is right, if I, if I start feeling, you know, how am I, where am I going to go from here?

Diego: You know, what does growth look like for me and what am I craving, et cetera. If the timing is right, then I would at least explore over a call, et cetera. So it would really depend on where, where I'm at, uh, in my journey, I guess. Uh, but I would, I wouldn't do it. I would never do it to, um, negotiate back or anything like that.

Diego: Right. So for me, it's more like forward than anything else. Uh, but, uh, first my, my only condition is I will, I will, I would need to love the brand in some way.

Sam: So if we focus on, uh, luxury fashion in general, I think from the outside looking in and again, from a marketing perspective, it does. You're almost like at the mercy of the brand team.

Sam: It's almost like they, [00:21:00] whatever they say goes. Is that the reality? Like when you, when you do actually work at these big brands?

Diego: I love this question. Um, and the reason why I love this question is because, um, I could map out how I changed my opinion on the subject based on how long I've been doing, I've been working within e commerce.

Diego: I would say at the beginning, um, sort of my, of my career, I truly, truly believed that brand didn't understand what we were trying to do, right? You know, we, in eco, we tend to be more, um, tech and commercial driven. We love selling and we love kind of a lower funnel and so on and so on. Um, having worked with a few great brands, you realize that We don't sell products, right?

Diego: We, we, we are almost the [00:22:00] highway or the freeway between the brand and the customer, right? We, we should be as, as efficient and invisible as possible. And I love that way of thinking. We, we don't sell products. We sell the brand. And I think it took, it took a while for me to really understand that, right?

Diego: That, that many. I would say more, maybe undeveloped or, or, or, or younger, maybe mature, whatever you want to call it. Um, he compares, um, they, they might think more short term, um, and they might look down on brand colleagues. The reality is, in my view, is the absolute opposite that it is the brand vision of the founder's vision of the creative director's vision makes the company stand out.

Diego: This applies to brand heavy companies, right? Obviously. Um. So, we, many e commerce, some agencies as well, are [00:23:00] not novice. Uh, they, they tend to make the experience quite generic, and in my view, that's a killer of brands. And, and I've seen many brands fall for this along the way. Um, the reality is that sometimes what you don't do is as important as what you do, but also how you do it is as important as doing it.

Diego: Um, so I really, really, now I'm a, I consider myself a brand e commerce person in that I'm, I think brand first, um, and then, and by e commerce, I mean, you know, more lower funnel tactics and, you know, quick sell tactics and commercially driven things and et cetera, et cetera. Um, I think that both things could be true at the same time or right at the same time.

Sam: That's such a good way of phrasing it, like you're selling the brand, not like the specific products. It's a very good like mindset and like, uh, lens to look at things. Are there any tips or advice that you'd be [00:24:00] giving to other, uh, e com leads that are potentially just banging their heads against the wall, uh, trying to get things through or signed off by brand, but just getting blocked?

Diego: I would strongly suggest to follow the instinct of the brand colleagues. Um, you know, it is their instinct because data only tells you what happened until today. It can never tell you why and what will happen tomorrow. And I believe that there's an element of magic in brand building that cannot be pinned down with data.

Diego: And I think it is an element of magic that defines a company like Totem. Or to see or jaded, um, and many, many, many brands that we work with and we know, um, and I think there's no amount of analytics or no amount of tech that could really, really capture what that [00:25:00] element of magic is. And, and I would always, I would always suggest to follow the instinct of the brand colleagues or the founders of the company, which is what built the company in the first place.

Sam: Okay.

Jake: Yeah. Nice.

Sam: Um, in general, uh, how do you approach content in the luxury fashion space?

Diego: You mean in terms of content building or in terms of the content being, being built and then sent to us?

Sam: Uh, it's kind of touched on both. So do you actually, is it all done in house or do you use external people? Um,

Diego: yeah, I mean, all the companies that I work with, um, the content is built. Has been created in house.

Diego: And one thing that you see a lot is, um, you know, uh, [00:26:00] sometimes the digital marketing teams brief the creative teams to create certain type of content, usually following recommendations by metal, snapchat, tick tock and so on. Um, I like it when he's the other way around. I like it when the brand team has a vision.

Diego: Um, and then I Sort of top down. They, they send the content that they want to send despite or regardless what meta or Whichever company might say and I, I love that. That's something that I really Um, I saw that happening at Totem and the company went into full hyper growth and they were doing basically the opposite of what many companies were recommending and To me, it is an element of magic.

Diego: So I like the idea of content being somewhat detached from the needs of some other teams, especially around the commercial teams. Um, so, [00:27:00] so I prefer it when, when the brand team creates things in, in like their own vacuum of creativity and, and in their own universe and then basically send it to us. And then we go, Okay, well, now we put it out.

Diego: And I love that. Um, I think sometimes, Right? We, you know, would you trust my opinion or would you trust a proper creative person's opinion? I would trust them over me any day when it comes to content and creatives. So I think that we should always let the creatives do the creative work.

Jake: I think there's a lot to be said actually about leaning into sort of the spirit of when you said it's the founder vision or Sort of the creative part of it, in terms of the site experience, just looking on both Totem and Jaded now.

Jake: You know, the homepage is this expansive, uh, video where most ecom managers or analytical people [00:28:00] would say, Don't do that, because it will slow the site down. But actually, everything you just said leans into, this is the spirit of who we are, this is brand. Um, so I actually think both of those websites a little bit.

Jake: Um, they're both a little bit, not, not necessarily conventional e-commerce shopping experiences, which I think is a good thing. A lot of sites look very similar these days, uh, whereas these two, to me, uh, it's got some, it's got a bit of substance and spirit about it, which, uh, I like

Diego: and it's always tricky to try to.

Diego: Right. Create the language off the brand, um, and translate that into a site that is also functional, right? Because people need to be able to convert and get the products that they like. And it, that is, that can be quite tricky to, to get right. Um, but, but I think separating, [00:29:00] um, the objective from the subjective is very important, right?

Diego: To me. The objective side of things, which is where e-comm can be the strongest, is on understanding user experience and especially prepping the, you know, the PDP and site speed and all this kind of technical sort under the surface, or maybe boring bits, uh, seen by other, by others. Um, that, that has to be our expertise.

Diego: But things like. Content and, and, and copy, et cetera, that, that is better, right? Um, um, created by, uh, brand teams and, and, and other creatives in the company. So I think really understanding what your strength is as a team is really important as well, and, and, and kind of outsourcing what is not, uh, your strength to, to better, um, better suited people within the companies.

Diego: The way to go, I think.

Sam: Are you using any form of AI at all within content creation to speed things up? Um,

Diego: Yeah, you know, uh, [00:30:00] that's, that's a good question. And I'm, I'm, you know, uh, no, we're not. And I, I just don't think that it is in some ways AI, however one can define it, but it is. sort of the opposite of what a brand team does, right?

Diego: Which is about, um, geekiness on prepping a shoot and picking the models and the right lighting is just the amount of love and effort that goes into, it's like prepping a meal, right? Um, the, the, the, there's the loss of that with any AI generated content that I think, um, goes against what I was saying earlier.

Diego: I might change my position in the future, but I just, I just, to me, AI represents such a massive loss of control, even, you know, I'm sure that you've tested an AI generated copy, [00:31:00] and I just feel this is, you know, it's better to work with a, with a colleague, that you can go back and forth and then share ideas and understand why you do things.

Diego: Um, I think, you know, it might change in the future, but I don't think it will be. As revolutionary asis, um, presented sometimes, at least not in the short term.

Sam: Yeah, no, I agree with that. There's, uh, an insane amount of hype at the moment.

Diego: Yeah. And, and remember not long ago we, we made, we, we were talking about, uh, whatever, right?

Diego: Uh, cryptocurrency or maybe one was talking about Web3, whatever it was called, and now this like jpeg things and Right, and, and, and sometimes really when you, when you. When you have limited resources, right? And sort of infinite, uh, thoughts and, and, and, or, or trends or actual, actual solid trends. Um, it's really hard to, to, to think about, okay, where should I allocate my [00:32:00] very limited resources?

Diego: And, and there, there is a certain predictability. Uh, the one might disagree sometimes, but this isn't predictability and comfort working with people and you develop, right, this relationship that is, that is priceless. Um, but yeah, I just, I just think that that gives you an element of care and control that it is what a brand team should be about.

Sam: Yeah, we actually shared it in our newsletter last month, but, uh, you mentioned all of those trends and fads, and it's like the metaverse, and Facebook even rebranded to meta, they've sunk like 56 billion into it over a few years, and just nobody talks about it much, it's all just AI.

Diego: Facebook AI today, right?

Sam: Yeah. Well, I think that's a good way, good area to take a quick break.[00:33:00]

Sam: Okay, so the next question is kind of playing off what you've just mentioned there. I'm just trying to balance the brand exclusivity with scale. So, um, from your, from your own point of view, like in the marketing team, like if you wanna, um, hit targets and reach new audiences, how do you balance that whole.

Sam: Going for the new audience and scaling versus the whole perception of, uh, luxury and exclusivity.

Diego: I, I, I think you, you know, it would be very brand dependent. Um, I worked at, you know, the, the three companies, um, that we mentioned, um, they, they all have very, very different approaches. And, but I, I just think overall awareness is very important.

Diego: I think that sort of, um, cutting through the noise and, and, um, creating impactful. content and product that really stands out. Um, it's very [00:34:00] difficult. Um, but I believe that's where it's at. Um, and It is only achieved, like, in great content, great products, and great messaging, more than anything else. And, and I think that there's an element of organic that is really important as well.

Diego: I, I do believe that, uh, there could be supporting channels, um, in terms of reaching out to, um, new audiences. But there's nothing like organic, right? There's, and by organic, we mean, you know, word of mouth, and, uh, you know, friend telling a friend, or, uh, media picking things up, or, or X or whatever. Um, and I and I and I think there's, there's, um, the only way to stand out is by creating great products, great brand execution and just a fun messaging and really standing out is very competitive, right?

Diego: And everybody's fighting for attention. Um, so it's, I think it's a very tricky one and one could spend infinite [00:35:00] money trying to Breakthrough the noise and still not, you know, not make it. Um, but I just think it's, I just think that at the very core is about resonating, resonating with a niche audience that in turn is able to influence, you know, their audience and so on and so on.

Diego: Um, I remember at the time, you know, the company was very small when I joined and now they, you know, they're a really good size and um, They had this core customer base. It's kind of they had fans. They didn't have customers. Um, and that applies to Stussy. It definitely applies to Jaded, right? And I love this idea that you talk to your fans and and from that core group of customers, you tend to grow.

Diego: I think if you try to reach to everyone at the same time everywhere, you will deplete your resources very quickly. Um, so I love the idea of caring about your fans, um, the most. Um, all the way [00:36:00] to, uh, post purchase experience. Right. And I think usually the customer experience side of things tends to be a little bit ignored, but, um, I see that as part of the messaging and caring for your audience wherever they are in the funnel.

Jake: And in terms of messaging and, you know, addressing these, uh, different types of audiences, um, I understand that JADED is international, so you're marketing across different geographies. Uh, I think you mentioned before the call, UK, USA, Asia. Um, I mean, specifically on Asia. I appreciate you've only been with the company a few weeks, but is there a localized team there?

Jake: Are you addressing, like, there's got to be cultural nuances to that market. Is that, is that anything you've been able to lift the lid on yet?

Diego: Yeah, I just did a big, a big audit, uh, to see where, [00:37:00] where we sit in the, in the market in terms of, um, our service, our service against our peer brands. Um, we have a long way to go, which is what excited me about joining, um, This company?

Mm.

Diego: I would say that in terms of focusing the resources, for me, it's very important to think about, um, key markets first, uh, uk, u uh, us, um, and Europe. And I love the idea that you, you, you need to master your core markets before you move on to a new market. If not, one should lean on partners and whole wholesalers.

Diego: Um, I think trying to do everything at once would be very difficult. Um. So I love the idea that you just master your core market, become really good at it, and then you go for the other markets. I think, in terms of localizing a team in, say, APAC countries, I [00:38:00] think we're, we're away from that. We did it at Stussy, which was fantastic, right?

Diego: Imagine having, I love the idea, you're local in your key markets. Obviously volumes were very different, but, um, To me, that was, uh, that's the, that's a dream goal or the dream place to be, uh, where I was a few weeks ago. Um, so, uh, so, so in a way, trying to build, um, sort of a roadmap and trying to build a setup that would allow us to cater for these customers is very, very important part of the challenge, for sure.

Diego: Yeah, you ask me again in two years. See, see, see where we landed.

Jake: Yeah, I think it's an interesting Because just to get quite practical about it most you know the Easier way to grow maybe not an easy way to grow is international Expansion so how do you start? Where do you start? Sam and I experienced this at made.

Jake: com [00:39:00] with, you know, UK being the core market and then expanding into, into Europe, France, Germany, et cetera. But how, what's the heuristic, I suppose, to, how do you know when to go more aggressive and harder into fewer countries?

Diego: That's key, right? It's kind of,

Jake: yeah.

Diego: That's really key. And, and, and it's usually.

Diego: It's usually driven by a wish, like, you know, like a CEO might say, okay, I really want to grow into the U. S. Um, and, and, and sometimes it's driven by awareness, right? Is there demand for my brand in certain countries? Sometimes, you know, you may get random demand. It's a local celebrity might wear something and then the rest of their core audience picks it up and suddenly you see traffic.

Diego: Oh, what what's going on in Japan or what's going on in Korea? And then you realize oh somebody wore it and people loved it. I I think both are valid. I I tend to go by demand I like the idea that um and demand is usually driven by [00:40:00] something right and generally speaking some kind of a Organic event in this case a celebrity wearing the the brand.

Diego: Um I think I think demand is the most difficult Aspect of the whole journey. So if the month is there, uh, then it's easier to build right from that core audience. Um, what is very difficult and I've seen a few companies fail is when they want to go to X market for The wrong reason, which is usually not related to demand.

Diego: Maybe it's a wish or maybe, right? It's a Other reasons that are not related to actual demand and then it's it is so expensive to break into a new market So it is better to work with a the core audience And grow from there, of course one could one could ask okay, but how is that demand? How do you create demand?

Diego: Right what happens before that? It's like the big bang question, right? Um, and in my view, [00:41:00] um, it is 100 percent of the times organically led. I've never seen a situation where, where somebody said, okay, I'm going to spend a million dollars in this country and then grow from, from that. Um, it is usually organically led for this type of lifestyle, lifestyle brands.

Diego: Um, so, so it's better to work and identify your core, core audience, work with them and it's just kind of. Build it up from that. Um, but I do believe that growth usually comes from core markets until you're really maxed out the market. Um, and and I think it's very tempting to jump from market to market without doing one of the core markets properly.

Diego: Uh, and I would rather work on, you know, they're there. I think the U. S. The U. S. Is a great example. There's so many American brands that after so many years, They haven't left, or only now are coming to the UK, um, and these are four, [00:42:00] five billion dollar companies, right? Um, you know, they work so methodically to, to grow in their country, which is obviously really big and, and, you know, quite, quite wealthy in many ways.

Diego: Um, and I think that's, that's something that in some ways is inspiring. Imagine us trying to grow in the US. The market is so big. You could do so well in the U. S. before we even try to spend money in some other market. That's just how I think, uh, the company may have other ideas, but I believe that it's better to do a core market really well and really be really local there before trying new things in new countries.

Diego: Of course, one, you know, there are levels of involvement or levels of localization, right? You could say, okay, in the U. S. I want to have a Localized CX team, I want you to have a physical store in New York and LA, I want you to have, I want you to do this and that. That is, that's the dream scenario, right?

Diego: But in the meantime, one could translate the site in Korea, one could improve the shipping method. So, so really identifying, [00:43:00] right, how to improve where and how you allocate resources is a, is a delicate, difficult art. Um, that's, um, that's something that I'm sort of trying to audit and analyze at the moment for, for us.

Jake: Yeah, I think the resource, sorry, I was going to say the resource part is a particularly challenging one because all of a sudden you might, uh, diversify efforts and energy and investment elsewhere. But, um, like you said, especially with the US,

Diego: sitting down, pulling data from all these countries, right. And it is, it is time consuming and you know, all the teams are.

Diego: Just a few people, right? It's a small handful of people and, and, um, so, so one needs to be very scrappy and very savvy into how you allocate that time and energy and effort.

Jake: Yeah, I think, uh, yeah, so just to sort of round off on the international piece, are there any, um, particularly sort of surprising [00:44:00] challenges that you've encountered during the pandemic?

Jake: International expansion, whether that's logistical, cultural.

Diego: Yeah, I should, I should think, you know, some country, first of all, I think, I think of Korea as the new China. Um, in that, in that Korea has, has become, it's a very special sort of niche, but also very special market. Um, the, the Korean customer is very, they know what they want and they are very.

Diego: Yeah, there's just fans, right? They love brands and they just love being part of it. I think Korea is a very interesting country Um, the challenges are always understanding. Okay. What is a korean google and what payment methods do they use? How can I deliver? somewhat You know decent cost to to the country.

Diego: How can I keep my margins? So there's a lot of practicals that make uh trading like this difficult and then, you know, um, then markets like china are always challenging right because that's [00:45:00] another That's a whole nother level of localization They have their own channels and their own their own touch points and their own rules and and so legal Aspects to to keep in mind and cx aspects to keep in mind.

Diego: So I would I would always recommend um other e commerce and other professionals to really understand the customer and have empathy to to think like them, um, and chat to as many people from there as possible. Um, and because it's really easy to be Centric or America centric or what you're centric, depending where the company is based, right?

Diego: And it's really easy to think that people value the same things in other cultures, but the reality is very, very different. Um, and you, you realize that as you interact with all these different markets and customers and cultures.

Sam: Uh, so based on what you just said there, so you were saying originally about the brand, [00:46:00] um.

Sam: Being less focused on like direct tracking and numbers and data. And then with the international side of things too, like, how, how do you then decide if something's gone well from a brand perspective, like what, what does success look like, if that makes sense? How do you know that a message has landed well versus not landing well?

Sam: I

Diego: mean, to me, it's more about demand than, than transactions, right? It's, it's more about our, you know, you, you might see, for example. Um, I like, I like, I like averages because then you can really identify outliers, right? And, and you could identify, okay, say in certain markets, I'm seeing well above average sessions right to the site or searches.

Diego: Um, so that could be used as a proxy for interest and, and, and awareness. Um, and because it will usually be [00:47:00] organically driven, then you try to kind of. Retrace the steps and say, okay, where did this traffic come from? And then you find out, or maybe a celebrity talked about it. And then, okay, how did they get, did they shop at the store?

Diego: Did somebody give them the clothes? And then you try to kind of work backwards. Um, and then you, once you understand that, and, and you try to sort of build around that, right? Maybe you could be reaching out to that person and maybe doing something together, or could be gifting, depending on the company, right?

Diego: And, and, and I think, I think, You just have to know your averages really well, and you need to be able to spot the outlying data. Um, and I think it's about translating, say, data to insights, to action, and that could be applied to the internationalization piece, and also many aspects of what we do. I think it's really easy to drown in data, right, and you look at a big sheet and go, Okay, well, but knowing your averages and knowing the data.[00:48:00]

Diego: The demand for the brand in your market is really important. So then you can quickly identify when something goes north in this case.

Sam: Yeah. Do you do any kind of like qualitative assessment or. Data on that side more like yeah Do you ever do some kind of like surveys or more of a kind of qualitative understanding of whether the message landed whether like?

Sam: They'd like the brand campaign like things like that.

Diego: Yeah, that's a good question. I mean I in regards to brand specific content or Efforts not really. I mean we might be running a survey here and there but nothing nothing too substantial from for me Depending on the market, right? But for newer countries, I think it's more important to understand Demand versus revenue, right?

Diego: Say it could be like, oh, should people are coming to the side, but That's great, but people are not shopping and then you just don't say, okay, wait, what's going [00:49:00] on? You know, what is our proposition not too good and just to really really understand Again, because each market is different that would require a hundred percent resources, right?

Diego: But if you are doing seven countries That's a hundred times seven. So that's why one needs to be very careful in how you, you allocate, allocate your time. But I would just say that for me, demand, understanding demand is the most important. And for core markets, um, then one can go much deeper and allocate, say, 70 percent of your time, right?

Diego: But the rest should, should not be more than 10%, 15%.

Jake: AI might be able to help with some of that. Um, I was going to ask a quick question about budgeting. Uh, I don't know if we can make it sexy or not, but I'm sure two weeks in you're probably wading through spreadsheets, um, getting to grips with what budget you have available, whether you're [00:50:00] going to try and pitch for more budget.

Jake: Do you have any advice, general approach on? Um, how to build a budget on the allocation of it, things you would like to see, I think listeners will probably find that quite interesting.

Diego: Yeah, I mean, I like the idea of running a scrappy, but organized operation, right? And sort of, I like bringing things to the core, to the basics.

Diego: Um, I, I'm, I am a tech minimalist. Um, I don't like a big combination of platforms, and I just like things to be simple. Again, like the idea of a bridge or freeway is such a clean way of thinking about what we do, at least on the site or channel side of things. Um, so I would want to keep that as low as possible as long as it does the job.

Diego: Um, I do, when it comes to marketing, that's another business, right? Because then you need to think about, okay, [00:51:00] you know, how, How much am I willing to invest to attract new audiences and build my traffic volumes? And I think that's it's almost like a different conversation. It was like a different brain I go from e com to marketing and tech and it's gonna swap all these brains or hats And I am more of a fan of of keeping things minimal really understanding your stack and focusing on efficiency over Um, when it comes to, um, awareness and marketing, I like the idea of, of investing in great content and organic growth over paid.

Diego: I see paid as an amplification of what the brand team or the marketing team, um, is doing rather than the destination, if that makes sense, right? Um, but yeah, that's a delicate one, right? I have a, I have a [00:52:00] complicated relationship with, uh, when it comes to investing in them, because I think they're really good at over, um, Um, you know, they tend to claim the revenue numbers that just make absolutely no sense because if you add them all up, it ends up being four or five times the revenue for the month.

Diego: Though I understand that they can be touch points, et cetera, but you know, it's just attribution is such a hard one to pinpoint that I tend to be a little bit, um, agnostic or a bit careful how I see their contribution. I, I, I strongly believe that organic. Great content, great product, great service is more important than anything that one can do on paid because you may be able to attract a new user to the site, but right, the content, the product, the service, the packaging I think that's the element of practical magic that you can deliver [00:53:00] But yeah, I just think of it as a touch point So in terms of allocating the budget to answer the question, I would say I like don't over invest in tech, keep things minimal Work on the flow and efficiencies of the team instead.

Diego: Uh, and when it comes to Sort of the marketing side of things. I I I like the idea of investing more in organic and content. Um, than than paid

Jake: All right. I like that but just to sort of double tap on that a little bit with There's a definitely like a downward pressure on Senior marketers to get results quick.

Jake: Um, and I absolutely agree that non paid organic content virality as such, you know, important staples of any sustainable business. Do you find it, um, challenging to obviously you're two weeks in. And you've just said that your agenda is to prioritize the content, non paid stuff. Do [00:54:00] you think there will be any obstacles, difficulties with, with that?

Jake: You've just got to be brave.

Diego: Yeah, you know, you know what is very difficult, right? Imagine that you open your attribution dashboard, right? And you could quickly attribute. 50 percent of your revenue to these platforms, right? You invested X amount of money, and you can say, okay, 50%. The brand team could never do that.

Diego: Sure, one could, you know, there are platforms that might help you understand brand lift and so on and so on, but the reality is that it's very, very difficult for them to make a case. Um, and I think this is where a good orchestrator comes in and really, um, understands the music from the noise, right? And, and I think that, that.

Diego: Thoughts? Just because something is hard to attribute doesn't mean that it doesn't contribute, um, not to create a rhyme there, but it just came out like that. Um, and, and this, [00:55:00] again, this is where that element of, of magic comes in, and, and I think understanding that is really important. You see, you would see many examples of brands that that over invest in paid and under invest in service, product, or brand.

Diego: Um, and then they ended up paying the consequences, right? Because they, um, the cost per acquisition goes to the roof, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Um, so I, I believe that building your, your fund base, um, is really important. And then keeping them by offering them great service and great products. Um, Making them part of the community and making them, including them in the brand is very, very important.

Diego: I do agree that it's always a, the challenge and the pressure of trading daily, right, and weekly and, and that is a very, very delicate one. I just don't like over investing in lower funnel. I, I would rather, I would rather have a terrible ROAS and but get eyes on the brand and [00:56:00] You know, as long as it's a relevant audience, um, get the sessions from that and then slowly work them up to the brand.

Diego: Um, I, I, I think many times we could, we can sacrifice long term growth for short, short term gain, um, but it comes at a huge cost. So I always advise against that. For this kind of brands, by the way.

Jake: Great. I agree. I think I read something the other day. If you can easily measure something, it's probably it's not sacred.

Jake: If you've got a high ROI, you're probably not growing very well. So I feel, I feel like for the businesses you're working for, that's where the brand piece is so important. Great. Okay. So last round of questions. We've got one from the previous guest, Ben, and he asks, how do you identify how you can impact a business before you've actually started?

Diego: That's a great question. Um, and [00:57:00] it's, it's a difficult one. Um, I like the idea that do I have a lot to contribute? Can I make a difference? Um, could I use my experience in a way that. Uh, will improve the team of the culture of the company of the processes. Um, and I like that they have contributed, right?

Diego: And I feel that if you're able to contribute, whether let's say that, okay, we want to expand into China or we want to do something in the U. S., you know, and then I've had that experience and then I feel that I could contribute, then that's a perfect match. If the challenge would have been to build a warehouse in Brazil or, right, then it would be harder for me to, to, to contribute in that, in that respect.

Diego: Um, so I like the idea of matching your, I love the idea that you have given, you have learned, right? And, and I feel that I'm learning, um, quite a lot, but I'm also contributing, [00:58:00] um, a fair bit and, and, and that makes me happy. I think towards the end, at Tuesday, I felt that I was. My, my contribution ratio diminished through the three years.

Diego: Right. Obviously it was really high at the beginning, and then it starts to diminish and now it's kinda high again. And I love that, right? 'cause I feel that I, I have a lot to contribute and share and, and, and so on and so on. Um, so I want that to be high, always.

Sam: Great. Cool. Uh, the back of that then, so what, what was your biggest learning from Stussy that you'll be taking into jaded.

Diego: Yeah, I mean, we touched on it. Um, I would say on the, on the fun bits, brand, right? Brand is very important. Um, and brand is sacred and culture is really important. And I love that. Um, on the, on the practical bits, I think building really strong. Flows and processes to, to get the [00:59:00] perfect launches out and to get the right tech, um, orchestrating this, this launches and, and, and the right balance between pulling data and understanding things so you don't drown in a sea of data.

Diego: And, and, and I think there were a lot of practical, practical learnings that I bring with me, um, from my previous job, um, usually around. It's kind of under the surface, uh, type of learnings, um, or behind behind the scenes learnings, but also at a more philosophical level, um, yeah, just just what a brand means to its customers.

Diego: And I think that that is, um, there's always a warming thought.

Jake: Great. And then. Have you got a sort of 30, 60, 90 day plan going into Jaded? Is there any anything high level you can you can share on that or any changes that you're planning to [01:00:00] make versus what you've done

Diego: in previous

Jake: roles?

Diego: Yeah, I'm spending, you know, my first 30 days really understanding the people and the resources and the numbers and Also the brand, right?

Diego: The customers. There's quite, quite many aspects to, to learn. We talked about this, this idea of doing many things and, and not being good at any, or not really good at any. So I'm just trying to learn what these things are for, for this company. Um, and so for my first 30 days, I want to really learn. Um, then for the 60 days, I would really like to put together a plan that would give us.

Diego: quick wins. I had the expression, but I love the idea of, okay, what can I do that will give us a big, big results? Um, it could be translating a website. It could be changing a free shipping threshold in some country. It could be, okay, what can we do in these markets [01:01:00] that can give us can give the customers really better service and big wins for them?

Diego: Um, my, my dream would be to build a very tidy plan for the next three years. Together with different, uh, team members, and then center all the all the actions divided per year per channel to achieve that three. So kind of work, work backwards. Let's say, okay, if in three years we want to be here, what do we need to do in this channel, that channel as a team?

Diego: How do we need to be, um, uh, in this in this market and just kind of work backwards from that plan, which would be a very Basic financial plan and that's where I that's where I would like to be within the 90 months

Jake: Do you think um, do you think it's important to land those early Early quick wins to gain some confidence.

Jake: Are you of the opinion that[01:02:00]

Diego: Yeah, it's a confidence thing where you want to build confidence, um, with the team and you want to build the trust with the team and you want to quickly identify big wins. Um, and again, I, I mean, I, I feel that I work for the customer, right? So I want to think about, okay, we could do this for, to improve the experience for these customers here that, or those customers there.

Diego: Um, and I think it's really important. You want to start with good momentum and not, um, be quiet for too long.

Sam: Uh, on that, this might be a sneaky question, but you mentioned there on Stussy that, um, it was almost like a three year window and then you slowly started to see your, uh, diminishing returns. Is there anything that you would be changing in the jaded three year kind of plan to kind of avoid those diminishing returns in this three year window this time?

Diego: It's a tricky one, right? Because I feel that in a way, if you do your job so, so well, almost you [01:03:00] wouldn't be needed. If you create great processes, great flows, right, where you can go on a one month holiday, six month holiday, that's a dream, right? Um, on the, on the other hand, um, I, I think as a leader, you, you're like a coach or like an orchestrator.

Diego: You want to continue coaching and orchestrating the team. Um, I think. I mean, I dunno how it'll be, but I think in, for Jada, I think it's different because, you know, I'm, I am at the office and um, I can work closely with the team. Whereas at Studio, I was working remote and that, that presents its own challenges, right?

Diego: So I am more at the center of things and I really love that. Um, but it's also the kind of brand that lends itself to sort of many. More projects and kind of tactics and testing things. Whereas maybe it's to see, you know, there were many things that we wouldn't do for many reasons and all of them the right reasons, [01:04:00] right?

Diego: But, um, whereas I feel that we could be much more experimental and fun in terms of tactical approaches with this brand, whether it be many pop ups or whether it be launching a channel in some country. And so I think that it'll keep me busy for a while. I love the idea that if you can look back and say, okay, I was part of building this, uh, then you can be proud professionally.

Diego: And I think at Stusia I could say that we, we built many, many things and that's my goal for, for JLR for the next years.

Sam: Well, um, so at the end of the 90 days, you would deliver to the, the founder, um, kind of like a three year vision. What would that kind of look like, particularly at like the three year stage of just like, we just don't know what could happen to me,

Diego: to me, it should, it should be about setting out a financial goal, [01:05:00] um, right, dividing that per key markets, dividing that per per channel and then understanding, okay, say for e comm for retail or whatever, um, What do I need to do next year to get to that level, right?

Diego: Do I need more sessions volume? Do I need to improve my conversion? So you you That that way you can rally up the team behind a goal um, and then they know what they're trying to do rather than Be open to whatever happens and and sometimes it's a combination of both but having a north star is really important That's what I would like to deliver In in 90 days and this would be obviously in collaboration with other colleagues, right?

Jake: I mean, I don't have a three year plan. I'll say that Godspeed to you on that one

Diego: Yeah, send me a text in a few days, I'll let you know how that's going.

Sam: So, uh, to conclude that part, so like, say we got you back on in, what was [01:06:00] it, two and a half months time. And then you kind of look back, what would you have wanted to achieve once you get into that call?

Diego: You mean what would, you mean what would that serial plan look like, or?

Sam: Uh, yeah, kind of like the outputs over the last, of the previous 90 days.

Diego: It would look like a very nice and tidy Excel sheet with a lot of boring numbers. Um, and I would like that broken down by By market by channel. Um, and then deliver that to each department head so they would know what their goals are.

Diego: And then, um, let them contribute, um, what they can do to achieve that those goals. Sort of breaking that into basic metrics. Let's say that AOV sessions, uh, return rate and conversion rate for econ, for example, right? So you would need to you would then know that We've had my current session [01:07:00] levels. I'm achieving X then I will need 20 percent more sessions for next year to achieve Y And then then they work backwards How do I build my my sessions volume then based on what I know today and I think that provides you a different way of thinking sort of more linear way of thinking rather than As it is today, you're just building incrementally, but without knowing what are you trying to reach.

Diego: Um, so, so, that would be the tidiest, um, way to work, I think. Um, I'm meeting my CFO tomorrow, so let's see how it goes.

Sam: Within that then as well, would you be putting things in like headcount of like if we, if we achieve X, I need X higher as well.

Diego: Yeah, I, yes, I think you should, you should be able to, if the income team is tight, you should be able to scale to any number.

Diego: Right. Um, I just think that we need to build, build, build up our [01:08:00] team, but, um, I think it's more about the strategy of each channel, how they can deliver what we need them to deliver and how. Would they organize themselves? What would they suggest? Because I like the idea of making a collaborative, right?

Diego: But you're still offering a North Star and you say, okay, let's say that, you know, because otherwise, how do you know? When do we launch China or when do we do something in Germany? How would you know? It's really hard, right? But with the plan, you know, okay, for this year, we're going to focus on that. For that year, we're going to focus on that.

Diego: And for the third year, we're going to focus on that. So then you know that in three years, you would have a few stores, you would have launched in China, you would have had a localized team. And I think this is such a tidy, at least for my brain, it feels very tidy way to work, rather than ad hoc. Um, so yeah, it should be high level and it should be flexible, but there needs to be some sort of a North Star guide for the team to follow.

Jake: Have you got any burning questions for [01:09:00] the CFO and have you got any advice actually on I think that relationship is so Important between a marketer CMO CFO. We've actually got a new CFO joining in a few weeks. I'm asking As well.

Diego: Yeah, I mean I think overall It's it's nice to work With people that are good at what I'm bad at, right?

Diego: Uh, So he's he seems really good and and and for me it's more about really getting absolute clarity of our margins our budgets our financial goals And basically leaning on his expertise to build that three year plan, right? It's kind of basic three year plan Um that we can then distribute to the teams.

Diego: Um but um But yeah, I mean, I think I just want to listen to him and understand how, you know, they think differently from the rest of us. So I'm really keen on getting to know him well and [01:10:00] understanding how we can help each other there.

Sam: Okay, cool. Uh, concluding question. It's kind of two, two in one. Uh, so if we start with, um, based on your period with Stussy, how would you rate your performance out of 10?

Diego: Yes. Um, you know, uh, it's, it's a delicate one. I would give myself maybe It's seven. Um, not to be, I don't know, to be too humble or anything, but mainly, mainly because, um, I'd say that we were able to achieve, you know, many amazing things, uh, from building a great team to. Great flows and processes and, and securing many markets and many, many other fun things that we did, but not a 10.

Diego: And I think the difference or the distance between the seven and a 10 is probably [01:11:00] related to my need to contribute more and, and kind of. of that, of that sort of strategic, um, brain for, for, for the company. And, and I just love contributing and having a say, and I think, um, yeah. And, and also. I mean, there's, there are, there are things that you just can't do, right?

Diego: For, for many reasons, uh, whether it's because of the company philosophy or because of resources or, so sometimes you, you know, you're looking back and say, Oh, I wish I was, I would have been better at selling the project or pushing for this project. And so, and so on, but I would just say overall. Um, sure that I had a positive impact, um, and a lasting impact, but obviously, uh, I always want to give more and contribute more and, and, uh, have, yeah, and have this kind of legacy.

Diego: Right. But so yeah, I was a seven out of 10 is a fair, [01:12:00] fair one.

Sam: Sure. You're being very humble and it should be close. It's like a nine. Uh, but yeah, that's everything from there. Thank you again. It's been excellent conversation. Thank you very much. Thank you.

Diego: Yeah, thank you guys. Good to see you.

Sam: There we go.

Sam: Jake. That was Diego What are your thoughts?

Jake: Yeah, I thought some really interesting insight on market into luxury fashion across international markets Especially but thought particularly it was interesting when he kind of went against the grain regarding AI obviously, that's the all the rage at the minute and Specifically said, like, he thought it represented a loss of, of control and, um, just to be wary about that because with the creative process and the creative spirit he kept referencing, [01:13:00] um, it's not necessarily, doesn't necessarily bode well with that, so I think, yeah, maybe just a watch out, it's not, it's not the silver bullet for everything, um, um, Thank you.

Jake: Yeah, I liked that. Yeah, that's really

Sam: cool. It's quite refreshing to hear it directly from somebody who's actually doing marketing day to day. And just ignoring all the nonsense hype that's on social media that it's gonna replace people and all of this stuff. Particularly creative people. Um, whereas if brands are viewing it like that, then I think they've got their jobs safe for quite a while.

Sam: Um, yeah, there's a few really cool snippets I've pulled out. Um, I absolutely loved that one where you're saying about selling the brand, not the product. I really wish We had that mind well, I don't know about you, but I wish I had that mindset when we were made, where uh, it was so product focused, wasn't it?

Sam: It was just like, we have to sell X amount of sofas, X amount of armchairs, etc. And [01:14:00] MADE was at the time known as a very popular brand, but there was no real thought put behind how we're going to amplify this brand more, how we're going to sell this brand, which will then naturally cause people to buy more products.

Jake: Yeah, I think it's, um, it's like shifting the mindset from it being like utility purchase, like furniture is, to, yeah, it's, it's a lifestyle. It's like a way of, it's the experience that you're selling, not just. Um, so yeah, definitely way more stories to tell that way.

Sam: And then his whole experience with international expansion.

Sam: I don't, I don't think he's aware of how good it is. Uh, particularly in Asia, like it's so rare to find people that have, for him to just throw out that snippet of just being like, yeah, Korea is the new China and you just like,

yeah,

Sam: like that, like you don't even read that in like newspapers or whatever, like economists or whatever, that's like hands on [01:15:00] tangible experience.

Jake: Yeah, I think he specifically said, um, the customer base in Korea as well, where like real super fans, like love the brand, like. Proper sort of enthusiasts, which I mean, if you can find them, then, um, you can really peddle it because I thought that was really interesting.

Sam: And off the back of that then, I think I didn't mention it in the chat, in the chat, because we've, the flow kind of kept going, but this whole thing about owning your market first before moving on, like the amount of DTC brands that we worked with.

Sam: Over the COVID period that needed to learn that lesson, like we had some that were just well known in London So they would just like yeah, we've we've done with the UK now We're gonna go to Paris and Amsterdam and all of this like before they'd even figured out how to transport their products from London to Birmingham And yeah, they need to learn that lesson

Jake: I think the, unless you really understand like [01:16:00] the penetration in a country or a certain city, which probably a lot of brands don't like, yeah, I'd say be wary of being too greedy and trying to swallow up too many areas until you've cracked one place really well.

Sam: Yeah. And then I think the point at the start as well around the job hunting, that was really interesting. And I think, I kind of touched on it, but I do, like, I want to re emphasise again because I think, I think a lot of people would, uh, assume that you just become a senior person in your job, and you're just good, and you just get all of these jobs, and people poach you all the time, which definitely isn't a reality, like, yeah, you'll get a bunch of recruiters on LinkedIn messaging you, but to get to what he got, like, he was, again, very modest about it, but, That is a symptom of all of the other stuff he does, which is the speaking events, networking, genuine, like, going out there to learn, which so many people just wouldn't do and don't see the value in it.

Sam: And I've [01:17:00] always found it fascinating when you speak to people that work in house, that go out of their way to do all of that stuff, because as an agency, I don't know if you work agency side, you just do it for like the networking and sales and leads and awareness. You don't really need to do it if you're working in house.

Sam: But you just do it because of that growth mindset and then the symptom that comes off the back of that is More or less being able to walk into a brand like jaded doing barely an interview.

Jake: Yeah Fascinating pretty was like anti CV almost. It's quite a good position being if You don't even need that so Testament to him.

Jake: I think yeah, definitely. I

Sam: think the area that I mean, I just always struggle with I still just don't get an answer Like, I love the mindset of like, not tracking things to a T, 100 percent agree with that. I think Meta and Google have just killed like that marketing mindset over the last 10 years or so, where it's just [01:18:00] marketing to people when they're ready to buy.

Sam: So then hopefully now with all the tracking attribution difficulties, that kind of more broader mindset of marketing will come back. And just using the data as a tool and a facility to like, make informed decisions. But I still didn't get an understanding of how do you actually know when things are successful?

Sam: Like if you can't rely on the numbers as much, is it again just a case of like the brand manager just being like, yeah, that went well or just their perception that no, that didn't go very well.

Jake: Yeah. Clearly it got to be like a level of confidence in what you're doing if it like ladders up into a broader mission.

Jake: But I think, yeah, I found it refreshing that he had the humility to say like attribution is just really. Difficult if basically impossible to a degree. So, you know, it's a time when a lot of marketers that's like the number one question they've got. So yeah, and [01:19:00] then just the whole piece around like flipping the, the, uh, the, the investment to, to weight into content brand, uh, I think very few brands probably have, uh, the bravery to do that because it's harder, but it probably.

Jake: It works out better for the long one.

Sam: Definitely. Uh, okay, so he's obviously two and a half weeks into Jaded. Um, he's kind of got his 30, 60, 90 kind of planned out, which then turns into a three year plan, which is just insane by fair play. What were your thoughts on his 30, 60, 90? And then how did that compare to yours, um, when you joined Sarovum?

Jake: Yeah, I thought, I thought it was good. I thought, um, similar to me in that first 30 days is, uh, all about. Um, sort of building the relationships like that is a must rather [01:20:00] than diving in headfirst into, uh, I mean, he did mention about the getting some wins under his belt, which is also important. The confidence piece, which I was very mindful to do.

Jake: Um, but yeah, sort of speak to the key stakeholders and then get in there. Buy in is kind of like a quite a respectful thing to do, but also, um, it just makes sense to speak to the people who are already there and get their take on things. Uh, I do think for me personally, I know he talked about building out that plan to look right out.

Jake: To a three year plan, that's not something I did or would necessarily encourage. My personal opinion is that the tech, e com, retail landscape is changing so rapidly, especially on the tech side of things. I'm just not sure it's worth the time and effort building it out to three years. That's just my [01:21:00] personal opinion.

Jake: I think too many things will change between now and even six to 12 months. Maybe it's nice to have a few blue sky. Uh, thoughts, but, uh, I'd be more, I definitely concentrate more on the immediate 12 months. Um, but yeah, I think just like generally on the 30, 60, 90 day plan, uh, there's a great book actually, which our friend, our good friend, Sam Vindon recommended to me before I, uh, joined Sarah Raven and it's called the first 90 days, uh, by the author Michael Watkins.

Jake: Uh, and that was a super helpful book. I thought it was really practical. Helps just set the whole framework. Um, and actually it goes, it talks about if you're fortunate enough to Uh, when you enter a new brand, especially if the person you're taking over from or if you've got a predecessor [01:22:00] like really get under the skin of like their thoughts and feelings on it, they'll probably be quite honest, they're departing or, um, there's no reason why they would hide things from you, so like use them to your advantage as much as possible.

Jake: Uh, and it really talks about, um, anchoring back everything that you do to some sort of success, KPI measures, that's going to be really important to, you know, if you're managing, if you're reporting back into the founder or the CEO, um, it's all right, listing a big, long bunch of tasks, like how are you going to know if you achieved it, um, did you hit the marks, I think, Uh, I think in areas I maybe didn't put enough, um, measurement in and looking back could have done a little bit more on that front.

Jake: Um, so yeah, I'd encourage everyone to, cause that's your own useful, yeah, measuring stick. If you like, did you actually achieve what you set out to do? So definitely, uh, [01:23:00] Include measurement, is what I would say.

Sam: What if, um, so if you were gonna do that, uh, 30, 60, 90 again, is there anything you would do differently now?

Jake: Um, probably try and, I, I maybe, I actually over indexed quite a lot on getting some early in which not necessarily a bad thing, but it was at the time where we needed to, we would join just before our spring peak that was crucial for trading. So it couldn't really take a back seat, but it did take me then a bit longer to get up to speed with the various different departments, stakeholders, like really trying to understand the business.

Jake: So maybe out of necessity neglected that a little bit more on that kind of went more into the. The second 30 day sprint, whereas I would have preferred that to be the first 30 day sprint, because it just makes [01:24:00] things a little bit easier when you understand the business better. Um, yeah, so that would be, if you're in a perfect world, learn more in the first 30 days and just listen to people.

Sam: So we've asked a few other Ecom marketing leads to give their 30s, 60s, 90s as well, which we'll add into like a company blog post, but while we're on the call last day, I can just do a brief summary. So I've got two of them here. Uh, it's basically first 30 days for one of them can be summarized as building foundations and getting stuck in.

Sam: What like that? What do you think? Yeah. Yeah. I'm a big fan of that. Getting stuck in. 60 days. It's more like just baking, making the company aware that they have a new. Insert job title and introducing yourself, uh, 60 days then is all about collaborating, learning and deliver. In here she talks about [01:25:00] strengthening relationships with external partners, particularly specific agencies, consultants, understanding your internal team, their strengths, weaknesses, all of that side of things.

Sam: And then when you get into the final 90 days, that's when you start executing and embedding because I guess that's, that's the part of it really, is why it's so interesting, isn't it, it's like three months, it's essentially somebody's probation period, so it's like balancing, proving that you've really got your job without doing too much in a short period of time.

Jake: Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's not necessarily It's definitely not a rite of passage just to expect that, uh, you could leave it till the last 30 days of the whole 90. That's why I would maybe encourage to try and get a few wins under the belt a bit earlier, because I think it definitely takes the pressure off.

Jake: It gives confidence in, uh, your manager and the team, because you got to, you got to remember it's a, it's a big change for you, but it's also a big change for the team that you might be inheriting. So you kind of [01:26:00] want to make sure that they think, you know, you're worth your salt and you, you buy, buy your word.

Jake: Um, so yeah, I'm quite a big fan of trying to deliver stuff earlier if possible, within reason.

Sam: Yeah, definitely. And, uh, the other one again, just summaries of first 30 days. Learn, absorb, build relationships, 60 days demonstrate understanding and adaptability and then 90 days implement changes and drive impact.

Sam: I think one, so one again, uh, I'm not in house agency side now, but I think one agency thinking, um. That can help is ask the stupid questions in the first 30 days Because like if you don't know what a trading manager is or product manager what they're actually doing Ask then so, you know exactly what it is How the team structure works who the bosses are [01:27:00] etc Like all those stupid questions at the start because if you ask them past your probation, yeah, they can kind of quite bad on you

Jake: Yeah And just to add to that, I think, uh, only thing I did that I found helpful was to, um, not just speak into the, you've got the immediate team, like, so vertically, but then also laterally across whether it's same level or heads off, but like speak to their, uh, skip reports as well.

Jake: Like you need to try and identify who are there. Influential figures within the business and those people are always just the most senior people like you might find I found this there's a few sort of mid level people who are sort of the glue between Various different departments and they go above and beyond just what their job remit is like You want to identify who those people are early on and understand who they work with the most?

Jake: [01:28:00] Um, and any challenges or opportunities they've got. So I think, yeah, go further out, not just laterally, but skip reports. Can you sometimes get more value out of speaking to people, um, further down the chain, so to speak.

Sam: Yeah, I think, uh, again. Not in house anymore, but it was one of the biggest lessons that I got from our manager at the time.

Sam: I was like, I think, I was probably at the stage, maybe like, I don't know, 40 days into the role. And then for context, I'd been at agencies previously, so it's first in house role and Inherited a massively declining website because the devs had basically done some A B testing. There wasn't an SEO manager and they'd been penalized for SOFRs.

Sam: It's a lot of 30 days, you know, figuring out what's going on, all of that side of things. But then once I figured it out, I did the classic agency thing of, um, Big presentation deck, big red [01:29:00] arrows proving the value of yourself and like what you're bringing to the company that would have gone like try to get as high as you possibly could go like for us it would have been the CMO through the value to your boss's boss essentially.

Sam: But then our boss was, was like, this is, he'd worked the agency side before as well. And he said, um, in house and agency is very different. The people that made this mistake are on your team as well. Like we're all trying to achieve the same thing. So take, remove all the big red writing, essentially take this over to that team.

Sam: Um, and the people involved, give them a heads up. Tell them what you found, what you're planning on doing. And then that's such a good way then to start building relationships with those people. before eventually going up to the CMO and essentially, yeah, throwing them under the bus and just causing chaos.

Sam: I was just like, yeah, that's, that's wisdom and experience that I just did not have at that time.[01:30:00]

Sam: Alrighty, if you call it a day.

Jake: Yeah, that was good.

Sam: Thank you very much. Chat to you soon, Chip. Bye.